July 29th 2010
Are Pimpin and Dating the Same?
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by msbnmd on March 14, 2010, 11:46 am in Dating
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22 comments |
In an era post the 2005 Academy Award Nominated Film for Best Movie Hustle and Flow society has come to “accept” pimpin as a social reality. We all remember the famous line in that movie as the pimp, DJ, played by Terrence Howard, is being arrested and his hoe, Nola, played by Taryn Manning yells “I’m in charge!” This powerful scene illustrates the fall of a pimp, and the rise of a hoe. He is finally defeated by his hard life, and somehow, she is redeemed by that same harsh life. This blog isn’t about a movie, but rather about pimpin’.
In an interesting expose, This American Life composed a piece called Pimp Anthropology where a former pimp gives the ins and outs of the world of pimpin’. As I listened to it, I couldn’t help but see the parallels between what we have all come to understand as pimpin and what we all seem confused by: dating and love relationships.
Take some time to listen to the candid presentation of the world of pimpin by clicking this link: Pimp Anthropology. But for now, indulge me as I try to connect these seemingly opposite worlds and offer my perspective on why we all struggle in this “game”.
The first of many striking realizations I had while listening to this former pimp was his identification of the three basic rules of pimpin’: Know going in, that you are using people. Out maneuver people when they are trying to play you. Don’t ever get sentimental about it: it’s just business. When I heard him outline these principles of the “game” I couldn’t help but immediately notice their similarity to the dating game.
In the world of dating we often talk about what we, (both men and women) stand to gain in relationships [go in knowing that you are using people] and we find this perception fairly normal. We barter from the beginning: You give me this, and I will give you that. We dance around this truth by using words like “standards” or “boundaries” but essentially we are saying what we know we want to get, and what we expect to give. –Hold that thought for a minute and let me move on to the next comparison. Then, when we encounter conflict or problems and the first thing many of us do is attempt to make the right move. We want to say the right thing to protect our interests, egos, investments, or intentions [Out maneuver people when they are trying to play you] in order to “win”. Many people won’t openly admit to this, but more times than not, when conflict arises in relationships folks head for protection mode. The statement "he/she is trying to play me" is widely accepted, and understood as a deal breaker. Whether they are attempting to protect objects or more abstract things like feelings, we can all admit to trying to “out maneuver the other”. And finally, there is a striking similarity between pimpin’ and dating when you think about the “rules” for dating: feelings, needs, and wounds have to take a back seat during the “courting process” in order to the obtain the objective - which is closing the deal – we contemporary daters call this marriage – but nevertheless, achieving the end result [Don’t get sentimental about it – it’s just business].
I may be stretching this but do you see the same parallels I see? Have we, as a society become so numb to authentic feeling, so obsessed with how we “look” and are “perceived” that we’ve turned into a group of highly skilled pimps and hoes? Are our relationships just a manifestation of our desire to pimp by the book and those of us who don’t follow the rules to succumb to being hoes?
This may seem a harsh comparison but in reality I don’t think they are too far apart. In another blog I will investigate the characteristics of both pimps and hoes and try to see where and why we started to blur the lines. I want to know, in all honesty, how and why dating has become a sophisticated style of pimpin’. Why else do we see more people single, with multiple lovers, playing mental games, and trying to keep things like feelings and emotions “light”? Why else are there battles over who should be able to have the upper hand and who shouldn’t? Sure, in our utopian model of love and relationships none of this goes on. But in reality, aren’t all these blogs, on this site, simply a manifestation of the pimpin game? Why else, if we are truly about love, do we find ourselves caught in a web of “what to say” “what to do” or “who to choose”? Is it possible that love evades so many young, intelligent, attractive black singles because everyone wants to be the pimp? And if so, what is the resistance to being a "hoe" if in all actuality your either pimpin' or hoein'?
Many of you might say the obvious: "I don't want to be a hoe!" But to you, I will ask this question, are you equally uncomfortable with being the Pimp?
I guess Three Six Mafia was right: " It's Hard out Here for a Pimp!”
-msb
Join the conversation, add your comment22 MEMBER COMMENT(S)
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On March 14, 2010, 12:50 pm loveless says:
Interesting blog. A pimp does have a hard job if #1 he have to go in knowing he will be using an individual. #2 Out Maneuver people when they are trying to play you and #3 Dont get sentimental, its just business. Im going to have to disagree that this sounds like dating. I never, ever want to use anyone and I dont want anyone to feel they are using me. When you date and you feel you are getting played, you have that option to leave and many will. A pimp is not going to let his hoe go that easy. Also the most obvious thing left for a pimp to do when he feels he is getting out maneuvered is to beat severly or murder. Nope still doesnt compare to dating. and last every movie I saw, it had a sentimental pimp. This was always his downfall. Maybe it was for the #1 hoe, his mother or child. Whatever the case may be they still have feelings. Their actions may not show it @ times but the right woman can come and change the game like anything else. See I see pimps as BINGERS. They are the ones who for a period ot time are excessive and uncontrolled and they overindulge in other people lives. The Hoes are people that are starving and will eat shit if they have to for a better life than what they have. When the two just happen to meet its explosive for all parties involved. Their actions not only effect them but a whole damn community. cause its always someone starving and bingeing.
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On March 14, 2010, 1:02 pm Wood says:
Hell, roughly 80% of my past GF had somebody they were likely sexing, but presented a conservitive image to me when we met. As a brotha, I have long learned that women don't want a potential mate to think that she is "loose" or promiscuous" in behavior, hence as to how sistas who are bonified "freaks" to the sistas who are actually very sexually conservative will present this same persona to men they are feeling, which actually reinforces the "game".
Know going in, that you are using people. As a man, I know that even serious talking sistas will allow me to date them while they are either sexing someone or keep me in a pool of suitors, even when she is already seriously feeling one of more. Her game plan is to keep my interested all the way until the moment she decides to blow me off. Out maneuver people when they are trying to play you. She runs the risk of the brotha she has chose to date establishing and continuing on in a BF/GF relationship knowing damn well he got with and starting to see other women during the dating phase, only to get caught or "caught up" with them getting their feeling hurt when she want to move it past a point that already had been predetermined. Don’t ever get sentimental about it: it’s just business. Let Lover Beware, and with each of us eagerly reinforcing and participating in the "game", getting hurt and played is... "Just the cost of doing business". |
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On March 14, 2010, 1:09 pm Blaze says:
@MsBnMD
You really took it there with this blog. At first I can say I was doubtful that you could explain how pimpin and dating are related but you brought it home nicely. Contrary to what most reading this may believe, I actually have to agree with you. I just had this same conversation (but with different lables) about how women have the most leverage at the beginning of the dating process. No matter how you look at it, once a man has expressed interest (pimpin) and his true intentions (courting), the woman has all the control. If a man truly has interest in this particular lady, we'll play by her rules. We realize women are more cautious so we'll let her hold the cards to keep things moving (Note: This only applies if she has main girl potential). If a woman plays the man straight up and expresses the same mutual feelings involved, this is when both start heading down the right path because a mature women will appreciate the attention and will reciprocate through her actions. That's all we need to see. The problem is when women take advantage of the leverage and try to be the "pimp" too long and keep the man in "hoe" status too long. Pimpin him for dinners and holding out on the booty, ok, my bad, intimacy, just to mislead a man, is when the games begin ( a few examples of manupulation and pimpin while he thinks he's still courting). With all that said, I think once a woman realizes intially she holds all the cards and if she plays it right by keeping it balanced, a man will follow. Lastly I would have to disagree by saying marriage is closing the deal. In my opinion. it's when you reach an emotional connection with a woman. Once that's established, skys the limit, rather it leads to marriage or having a friend for life. |
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On March 14, 2010, 1:16 pm Wood says:
Im going to have to disagree that this sounds like dating. I never, ever want to use anyone and I dont want anyone to feel they are using me. When you date and you feel you are getting played, you have that option to leave and many will.
I'm going to say it like I feel... yes you do. You even told of your dating style is to date multiply brothas, and cut the others loose when you decide on which one you want to continue dating. Most folks when dating multiple folks, starts to "feel" one person more than the other after a matter of dates and phone conversations, but folks want to keep everyone in the mix, and in the dark about what is really happening, all the way to the last possible moment. Folks are always worried and are trying to keep from being left "holding the bag" of one person not working out and no one else left to date... big-time game. The moment folks start keeping other suitors in the "dark" while in the dating game, is for our own selfish reasons, and it is Pure -T game. We justify our game play with "it is just dating"... it is a dating "game"... no need to keep beating around the bush about what actually goes on. |
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On March 14, 2010, 1:25 pm Blaze says:
@Loveless
Now you know you're my homegirl and based on your own stated dating habits, saying you never used any man is a contradiction. You mentioned before how you date on your own terms without any chance of a chance of any thing long term. You also explained the men you date are cool with it as well. So in essence you both are using each other either companionship and/or a little loving (as Wood would say..lol). That's pimpin. Not trying to pick on you but just trying to get a better understanding of your approach. |
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On March 14, 2010, 1:30 pm Wood says:
The problem is when women take advantage of the leverage and try to be the "pimp" too long and keep the man in "hoe" status too long. Pimpin him for dinners and holding out on the booty, ok, my bad, intimacy, just to mislead a man, is when the games begin ( a few examples of manupulation and pimpin while he thinks he's still courting).
In agreement 100%. There is intirely too much casual sexing going on out here for a sista in these days and time to even think she can keep a brotha in relationship mode for very long. With the bonified "freaks"/Busy Bodies trying to come off as legitimate keepers mixed in with the true potential keepers... brotha ain't buying that conservative "I want to take my precious time to get to know you better" BS with a grain of salt. I'll tell the true sexually conservative sista to set her self apart with just letting the brotha know early that she isn't seeing anyone sexually, and have never got down like that during my time. The other sistas who spent signicant time in their casual FWB/maintenance man dealings can just continue and just try to front the brotha out and hope he buys the conservative bullshit game you are trying to run past him. |
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On March 14, 2010, 1:36 pm loveless says:
@Blaze dont call me out like that. Its not the same. A pimp has some kind of leverage over his hoes, or I would hope so. If Im with a guy for whatever reasons and he's with me for the same. Thats not using each other, we want the same things maybe just at different times. My approach is this BLAZE, I dont want a long term relationship. He already know this b4 hand. Its not like im faking to get something from him and I hope he dont think he can make me stay by offering up more goods. A pimp would not do that, now would he. And I cant be a pimp because I am the most sentimental person I know.
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On March 14, 2010, 1:54 pm Blaze says:
@loveless
What would motivate a man to date a woman that's not out to date long term? What are benefits for each person if you're not to build something together? Sounds like your using each other for selfish needs. Could be companionship, sex, conversation, etc. Allow me to be real candid for a moment. Let's be honest and skip past all the rhetoric for minute. As a woman you have all the leverage in the world up front. Women decide if and when they choose to "date" a man and/or when you decide to be intimate with a man. Before moving forward, a woman is going to decide what's best for herself before she decides to "go there" with a man. As a man, that's a good part of our agenda rather if it's to make you our lady or if we just want the skins and bounce. Either way, you hold all the cards and leverage up front. A woman dictates intially the direction of any situation. That's only if you know how to use it properly or do what's best for u. Women lose and get played because some are out to fulfill their own selfish needs, a man picks up on it, then you wind up getting played. |
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On March 14, 2010, 2:57 pm loveless says:
@Blaze the only time I see a woman having leverage over a man in dating if she is holding out on him or if he's not that good in bed. Ok in the beginning she holds all the leverage in the world as you so eloquently put it. To me this is the sick and twisted mind game the guy play. He want her to actually think she holds some kind of leverage. He will wine and dine her and tell her what she wants to hear. The minute the woman gives it up, the game changes significantly,
I guess my response had an error. I dont tell a guy b4 hand, i dont want to date long term, I tell them Im not ready to get serious. The benefit of knowing this is for the guy to change his strategy. Find another approach. Make me want to stay. See I've been in the game too long so I already know get all my dating in and leave. If the guy get a second date with me, he made it to 1st base. If we still talk after a year, he made it to second. If he's lucky enough to have sex with me he made it to 3rd base. Thats really good cause since marriage is out of the question for me, a guy will never make a homerun. Believe me I have had my share of proposals. Its not pimping, its just keeping it real. Well The benefits of being with me period or any other woman, some men just like playing baseball. I prefer a man to play all sports and have options rather than waiting on a base for a long period of time. |
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On March 14, 2010, 4:33 pm Blaze says:
@Loveless
You sound kind of calculating based on your most recent baseball analogy. Are you the owner of the team pimpin your players..lol? Based you're more focused on what you're going to do before hand rather than playing the situation for what it's worth. By saying what a man is going to get from you ahead of time, you're already coming off selfishly ( out of love I say that) and not even considering what his needs may be. Also, why does a man have to "make you want to stay"? That's making you look like the pimp and him looking like the "hoe". That's like a pimp saying go make my money b*&^h! You also mentioned that things changes once she "gives it up"? Why do things have to change? Is that the differene when dating without the possibility of "homerun" and the situation has ran it's course once the two of you have sex? |
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On March 14, 2010, 4:59 pm loveless says:
@Blaze wow you asked so many questions in 3 short parsgraphs. So let me see if i can answer them to your satisfaction. #1 anyone that date should look at themself as an owner. So I would say yes, yes and yes. I have players waiting in the dugout in case I need them at any given moment. I have have players on the bases and the bases stay loaded in case i need to finally bring one home and there is always a need for players in the outfield.
#2 Im not really concerned with a man's needs as much as I am about my own. #3 A man should prove to me that he really want me to stay. After date 3 I start getting scared and move towards the exit. At this point it should be some kind of indication on his part he dont want me to leave, Like I said previously movies, dining and doing what I think a man should do is not a valid reason. He has to go over and beyond the basics, #4 Again if we are both having fun, no one is getting used pimping is not part of our equation. #5 Things should not change when sex inter into the relationship. I dont know why things change. Now men know the answer to that one but if I was going to make an educated guess I would say, having sex sealed the deal of what he was feeling. All the money, time and conversations he invested has finally paid off so from a man's point of view now he can relax, Sit back and see how the woman interacts. He observes at this point. He watches he investments more carefully. He want to invest but at this point he want a more secure investment. He watches closely. If his nvestment is doing well, he may just want to enjoy the profits w/o investing anymore. #6Yeah as long as I date w/o the possibility of homeruns or third base, I can still call the shots. If you get a veteran in who's been to 3rd base a couple of times, he may get tired and want to make a homerun. Having sex may not be the end od the course but in realty where is it leading to? I dont want to keep defending myself to a veteran player. |
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On March 14, 2010, 10:29 pm OldSolPoet says:
Interesting blog. I see you point in the analogy and the game is bullshit. I think that the whole thing about pimpin and gamin are right. It's an ugly truth for sure and it is the reason that there are so many unsuccessful relationships. At certain points in a mans life he wants certain things just as a woman does. I feel that people are not upfront from the beginning because they are afraid that they will blow their chance to be with that person be representing who they really are. I don't know if I agree going in with all those preconceived notions that someone is going to be used. When I was younger, maybe that is the way that I thought because the game was about sexual conquest. When I was younger, I wasnt looking for a relationship either.
When men/women go into a new relationship with too much of a gameplan then how can it hope to work. It is doomed from the gate. As we get older, we should be looking for the emotonal connection because good sex isn't hard to find. There has to be more substance there and less pimpin and gamin. I agree with Blaze, people only start heading down the right path when feelings are mutually expressed. And by the way, those that choose to indulge in the pimp game year after year are only hiding something and will continue to be alone. You can be in a room full of people and still be lonely. |
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On March 14, 2010, 10:43 pm msbnmd says:
Old Sol: Your wisdom never fails! I have to completely agree with you...at some point the game starts gaming the player...in fact in the documentary, the man who was explaining the whole culture of pimps said that sadly all the men who were once notorius pimps had either been locked up, or wound up addicted to crack. As for the hoes, they disintergrated right along witht the pimps.
The whole premise that the game is worth playing rests in the belief that it is better to mentally manipulate or withold feelings, thoughts, needs, expectations, and so forth from a person and attempt to manipulate getting those things met. I agree with both you and Blaze that if we are really going to build lasting, loving relationships we have to acknowledge the fact that no-one ever got what they really wanted by witholding. To get you have to give, and I would also add, give openly, freely, and with the true desire to share and relate. Without that, we are all, for lack of better words, a bunch of pimps and hoes....... thanks for checkin' for a sistah!!! LOL.... |
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On March 15, 2010, 8:00 am Wood says:
MSB, I don't think the game or building relationships is very complicated or elaborate. As I always saw it, folks are constantly trying to "get theirs off" on the other person on various levels, with the ultimate game plan of navigating towards what they want with minimum chances of being stuck with no option, thus left holding the bag.
The thing is, everyone is trying to "drag" their options, ie, other suitors with them for a dead-end ride too deep and too long in the while dating. The flip side to that is, the other suitors are not willing to allow the other person to get that off on them like that, only to be lead all the way down the path to the lake bed, only to be told they can't drink (lets be friends). No one is willing to take the time too early in a budding relationship to date one person at a time because we fear not having someone else if the other person does not work out. Years ago, after see this mess I decided to atleast create what I call an "opt out" from the game. My sentiments are, just like I told JAT, that if I meet a sista and have serious intention and she presents herself the same, I will give her about three weeks before I ask her whether or not she want to date me exclusively. I will give her a one-way and one shot chance to drop all other romantic or dating dealing and we both can take our time to get to know each other without the distraction of other folks in the mix. I'm getting to know her just like she is getting to know me. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work out. That was my only "donation" to the game that I was willing to make. Folks can try to explain the game as elaborate as they want, but the game is being perpatuated and reinforced by all because folks are trying to run their program under the radar while dating, but trying to come up clean and appearing sincere at the end. |
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On March 15, 2010, 9:10 am msbnmd says:
Folks can try to explain the game as elaborate as they want, but the game is being perpatuated and reinforced by all because folks are trying to run their program under the radar while dating, but trying to come up clean and appearing sincere at the end.
@Wood: I completely agree with you here. The thing is that folks talk about being transparent, but they rarely are. Folks (this goes for men and women) say they want to be committed but avoid commiting themselves. And then they wonder why things didn't work out with a particular person. What is so bad with trying to fully see a prospect out without the distraction of other people. I think we're tapping on the real truth behind all this talk about pimpin' and hoein': people are so distorted emotionally and psychologically that they opt for the game because there really isn't any substance behind the physique and the "things" they present. The don't want anyone to "see" who they really are, so they play the game.... It's almost sociopathic if you ask me!!! Thanks for the contribution!!! |
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On March 15, 2010, 12:50 pm Wood says:
What is so bad with trying to fully see a prospect out without the distraction of other people. You know, I've never grown tired of the game because I was so good at it, and many of my ex GFs came with it but tried to "sneak" it past me, but they never knew that our relationship had a pre-determined destination and termination point. I played it, and I played it well... and I make no bones about it.
When I met my girl, I had my serious intention hat and my "game" hat in my hand, just waiting to read her "cues". I realized that I had an "issue" that I was facing... she has never been in or played the game. She was as innocent and as vurnerable as I've come across. She was so green and out of the loop that her only defense to the game that she heard about from her whining GFs, was to just stay shut down to any advances from the brothas. I had to cut off anything that I was working on before I met her and waited what seems like forever to get some loving. I felt like she was actually "legit" and not trying to front on me with that conservative BS that many sistas try to run past a brotha, so I had no issue with waiting and promply kicking all previous "dealings" in the making into the "buddy buddy" category. I could write a book regarding all the comments that I heard from a few previous GFs and a few sistas who I was talking to or dating before I met my girl. The don't want anyone to "see" who they really are, so they play the game. From my personal perspective, it is much simplier than that and doesn't run deep at all. I think each person comes prepared to play and particpates during the beginning when dating, but one party want to hit the reset button and "opt out" of the game in mid-stream once they catch feelings, but the games has been in motion from the onset. Each person has their time and moments on both side in the game. |
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On March 15, 2010, 1:23 pm Wood says:
MSB, you guys want to play, but you sistas got too many things working against you, with two in particular...
emotions and hope. Those two things are your achilies heel. In that new Our Family Wedding movie that just came out this weekend with Regina King and Forest Whitaker when his long term friend King start catching feeling with him after knowing him all those years... that is what I call the "Slow Walk Technique". Don't laugh...lol. You meet and get to know a sista (don't forget about the game she brought with her when you first met), but you don't really actively pursue her with dating, but over time and many cases years as she gets to know you and enjoy talking to you and enjoying your company as friends, she will likely realize how well you two could be a couple (hope) and many will make the first move. Over years, many sista friends will realize that they are very compatible with their male friend and try to get with him after a while. As you guys will have to admit, the brothas have no issue with it - unitl she gets knocked up and bust his wallet wide open - and many have gotten to the point of being extemely picky about what it would take for them to hang up their jersey and leave the game. We have been conditioned and spoiled with far too many of you sistas active participation with all that casual loving that you guys were enjoying with us during your "easy and breezy" younger years, and in between your on and off commited BF periods, and many don't want to let it go...it doesn't runs that deep like you think MSB. |
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On March 15, 2010, 7:58 pm Dashon says:
@MsB: There have always been Pimps & Hoes and the way some manuever in the dating game is reminiscent of those roles. However, just like the actual P&H's...those that mimick that style find that their life overall doesn't amount to one meaningless screw after the other, and "benefits" that go as easily as they come. Just my 2.5
@OldSol: Nice to see your moniker on the Hill...would love to see a new blog from ya (Smile) Your perspective is truly missed. |
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On March 15, 2010, 8:00 pm Dashon says:
Typo: "...those that mimick that style find that their life overall amounts to one meaningless screw after the other"
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On March 15, 2010, 8:03 pm Wood says:
Hello Dashon...lol.
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On March 16, 2010, 9:25 am Dashon says:
@Wood: Hey Wassup :-)
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The game is deeply entrenched in our dating and romantic protocal that we learn right out the box.
It is so bad that even if we try doing or presenting ourselves to fit what the other gender states that they want, you more than likely to get your behindreamed wide open. It has been long determined by the brotha-hood that even the sistas who presents themselves as not wishing to participate in the game, are the biggest participants of the game.
The thing is that each gender actually validate, condone and reinforces it continuance. Brothas are reinforced to present this image of being prosperous and upscale persona by the sistas who chooses the ones who "presents" themselves as such. He doesn't have to be half broke and aint worth shit, but if his presentation is on point, he gets mega play and the ass... in many cases from more than a few at the same time.
The Sista-hood in many ways have their plans or game that they run of getting their freak on whenever and however during one point, but presents a totally different persona only towards men they really like or during a certain time of their lives... big time game.
Men and women are constantly keeping multiple "interests" in the mix and under cover when necessary in order to be able to sloths a few off at the last possible moment without the "chosen" one knowing about the other... big-time game.