July 29th 2010
Looking for Mr. or Mrs. Good Bar
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by MassAppeal on March 2, 2010, 10:03 am in Dating
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14 comments |
I know it's been a minute but I'm back with some random thoughts that have been on my mind lately. Now ladies help me understand this..I hear a lot of talk about how you all want a good guy but at the same time you also want a challenge. You don't want a man that's too easy or too nice because he wouldn't excite you. Let's be real here ladies by helping me understand this mindset. You all say you want a man to be chivalrous but he also needs to have some edge about himself as well. True enough. No matter what, women still get excited about a challenge or thinking you all can really change a man to be what they want him to be. To the contrary, any dude that comes off 100% cordial, respectful and considerate without any conflict has been considered "soft" in some of your eyes. There's plenty of men out there that fits this description but they seem to get overlooked. Whatever happened to those days when a simple "Hey, how are you doing tonight" was the appropriate way to approach a lady? Suddenly this approach isn't considered slick, witty, or hardcore enough to draw your attention. Why do you now think there's such an over abundance of fake thugs out here? And besides, like my man said, "Can I have a dance isn't really that original."
I won't be totally bias but men are just as guilty. We also like a challenge and a good chase as long as we don't have to reach too far into our pockets. To chase, compete and conquer is in our nature for some reason. It could be our egos or whatever but we love the chase. We don't like to deal with that one woman who shows us the most attention. For some odd reasons the women I may have overlooked, avoided or simply never showed interest in some how stuck around, stayed in their lanes and wound up becoming some of my best friends. But the women I played straight up and gave 100% of my attention to never could accept a man who was treating her with the respect she deserves wound up being the ones who quickly move on. I must have came off too soft. It's as if some women get nervous if a new situation appears to be too good to be true. After a few weeks some women are so accustomed to drama they need to see some conflict from a man to see how he'll react or to see if he really cares.
Whatever the case may be we all want something we can't have. We're attracted to someone who presents a challenge. We don't want anything if it's too easy unless it's a job, a hook up or a free meal. No matter how you look at it, it's a cat and mouse game from both sides. People love attention..let's be honest. There's been many times when men have pursued,chased,sweated or even courted (all the same damn thing) women while they sit back and soak it all in for their own selfish, self-esteem needs. The minute a man slows down his chase towards a woman she's quick to step her game up and is back on his jock. It's a vicious cycle. I'm convinced that the self-esteem level for many women is based off the amount of attention they receive from men. Why is that black ladies? In an effort to keep this blog official and unbiased, sadly enough that's the case for some men too.
I recently read this profound comment from a blog which I don't think women really understand or believe when it comes to dealing with men. Initially in the beginng phases of dating, men are so slick and strategic that there really isn't a distinction between a man who's only about getting the booty versus a man that's really trying to make you his wife. Both will wine and dine you. Both will spend quality time with you. Both will introduce you to their family and friends. Both could possibly give you that challenge and/or edginess you all so desire. But the problem is that so many women are only concerned about a man meeting their personal criteria or too busy enjoying all the attention that they let their guards down only to get duped. True enough it's a catch 22. Damn if you do and damn if you don't. Men get played the same way. It's hard to distinguish between a woman who's really interested in a man or just out to pimp. She'll accept all offers for dinner, concerts and events. She'll even meet your boys and parlay around as if you two are really kickin it on that level. She may even show you some public affection or even give you a lil something something to keep things moving. In reality all she's doing is trying to stay relevant or keeping busy until the "right" man for her comes along. I've seen this happen too many times so women don't try to deny this. The games we all play seem to never stop.
Women:What excites you about the challenge of pursuing a man? (Be real)What determines if a man is too "soft" versus a man who has an edge?
Men: How do you really distinguish between a woman that's out to pimp you versus one that is showing genuine interest?
I won't be totally bias but men are just as guilty. We also like a challenge and a good chase as long as we don't have to reach too far into our pockets. To chase, compete and conquer is in our nature for some reason. It could be our egos or whatever but we love the chase. We don't like to deal with that one woman who shows us the most attention. For some odd reasons the women I may have overlooked, avoided or simply never showed interest in some how stuck around, stayed in their lanes and wound up becoming some of my best friends. But the women I played straight up and gave 100% of my attention to never could accept a man who was treating her with the respect she deserves wound up being the ones who quickly move on. I must have came off too soft. It's as if some women get nervous if a new situation appears to be too good to be true. After a few weeks some women are so accustomed to drama they need to see some conflict from a man to see how he'll react or to see if he really cares.
Whatever the case may be we all want something we can't have. We're attracted to someone who presents a challenge. We don't want anything if it's too easy unless it's a job, a hook up or a free meal. No matter how you look at it, it's a cat and mouse game from both sides. People love attention..let's be honest. There's been many times when men have pursued,chased,sweated or even courted (all the same damn thing) women while they sit back and soak it all in for their own selfish, self-esteem needs. The minute a man slows down his chase towards a woman she's quick to step her game up and is back on his jock. It's a vicious cycle. I'm convinced that the self-esteem level for many women is based off the amount of attention they receive from men. Why is that black ladies? In an effort to keep this blog official and unbiased, sadly enough that's the case for some men too.
I recently read this profound comment from a blog which I don't think women really understand or believe when it comes to dealing with men. Initially in the beginng phases of dating, men are so slick and strategic that there really isn't a distinction between a man who's only about getting the booty versus a man that's really trying to make you his wife. Both will wine and dine you. Both will spend quality time with you. Both will introduce you to their family and friends. Both could possibly give you that challenge and/or edginess you all so desire. But the problem is that so many women are only concerned about a man meeting their personal criteria or too busy enjoying all the attention that they let their guards down only to get duped. True enough it's a catch 22. Damn if you do and damn if you don't. Men get played the same way. It's hard to distinguish between a woman who's really interested in a man or just out to pimp. She'll accept all offers for dinner, concerts and events. She'll even meet your boys and parlay around as if you two are really kickin it on that level. She may even show you some public affection or even give you a lil something something to keep things moving. In reality all she's doing is trying to stay relevant or keeping busy until the "right" man for her comes along. I've seen this happen too many times so women don't try to deny this. The games we all play seem to never stop.
Women:What excites you about the challenge of pursuing a man? (Be real)What determines if a man is too "soft" versus a man who has an edge?
Men: How do you really distinguish between a woman that's out to pimp you versus one that is showing genuine interest?
Join the conversation, add your comment14 MEMBER COMMENT(S)
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On March 2, 2010, 3:06 pm loveless says:
The man of my dreams can eliminate my fears, he can show me he want to be with me w/o trying too hard. Whats going to run me away really fast is the constant phone calls back to back. I want him to have time for me but NOT ALL THE TIME. I met a guy and his pick up line was can I occupy some of your time. Now I never heard that one but it was cool. That was ten years ago. Things didnt work out between us because he wanted more but we are still friends to this very day. Im not willing to give more than dating a couple of times and letting go. I dont want a guy to pursue me to the point I have to tell him to stop. I cut off all communication and move on. I dont give out my address or any personal information. That should tell a guy something right there about me. We meet at the movies or dinner or where ever but never, ever at my house. Mr. Nice Guy do things just because, I see him as a potential stalker. Hey just my opinion. I want a guy who understand my position on dating and respect it at the same time. When I want to go further, i'll let him know. If he's not ready so be it, time to move on. A soft man usually stick around a little too long for my comfort, a man with an edge will let me call on my terms, no questions asked. I dont ask any and neither does he. A criteria for anyone im seeing.
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On March 2, 2010, 3:32 pm Wood says:
To the contrary, any dude that comes off 100% cordial, respectful and considerate without any conflict has been considered "soft" in some of your eyes.
Mass, I have always found it astounding that you can't really come off as too straight and direct... you have to have an "angle". That is contrary to what they say. Imagine you have to have an angle, but they want you to be sincere and transparent. One time, I was just experimenting with apprpoaches during my serious moment periods, and when I saw a sista that I was attracted to and like the way she initially presented herself; I would say intruduce myself and say something like "I have a romantic attraction, and I want to take the time to get to know you". I know what the sista-hood initially think right out the box, that I am a potential stalker or bug-ah-boo or something. Actually, when a man approach, he will have some type of attraction whether it is sexual or romantically... but there will be some type of attraction. I just stated mines up front instead of her wondering where I was coming from. My approach was as direct as they come... I have a romantic attraction, and I would like to take the time to get to know you. The Sista-hood is very presumptuous and will add all kinds of thoughts to those words...it doesn't work. The slick and smooth BS actually works a whole lot better, in spite of what the Sista-hood says they want or like. |
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On March 2, 2010, 6:06 pm MassAppeal says:
@loveless
Wouldn't it be more beneficial for you to eliminate you own fears personally rather than rely on a man to do so? Aren't we suppose to love ourselves before someone else will? Also, are you saying if a man is expressing interest by calling you he's condered soft and if a man act's indifferent with a take it or leave it attitude he has an edge? In all fairness I did pose the question so I respect that loveless if I'm reading your comment right. @Wood Remember those days when a simple, direct approach was the only way to go when approaching a woman. Now all of sudden it's presented as coming off whack and corny. If women can see through the introduction and just take it as a mans attempt to express his intial interest than they would prabably meet more eligible men. As black people we get so hung up at the introduction phase. We make it hard on ourselves just to meet each other let alone getting to the point of a relationship..in my opinion. |
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On March 2, 2010, 6:34 pm JustAThought says:
@ Mass:
I like a man that has a sense of self that is humble, intelligent, and caring. That means, he can disagree with me without being combative, he can stand his ground without being an ahole or jerk, and he does not need to put me down in order to feel bigger. A person who respects himself and respects me. The 'edge' i'm looking for is someone who challenges me to come up higher without out all the sanctimonious postering and hypocritical behavior people are notorius for. A hypocrite, an arrogant person, a jerk, an abuser, a hurt person inflicting their issues on others because they refuse to do the work to heal - these are all people with too much 'edge' and are not the person for me. And hey how are you goes a long way with me. Would I get that more than the BS crap that brothers come up with. Hmm, at this point I like to express interest, but I do not like to pursue men. Law of diminishing returns and loss on investment. Lastly, the self-esteem issues that people have are shaped by this society, as well as their personal experiences. Everyone is subject to the nonsensical whims of our society and culture, where virtually everyone is made to feel inadequate. Some groups are more affected by this than others. Women are told that their worth is tied to their physical appearance, their ability to attract/retain a relationship with a man, and to a lesser extent her ability to have children. In order for a woman to withstand the assaults that will come against her self-esteem, she has to value herself outside of thse factors. That is a learned behavior. If a woman doesn't learn that behavior early, she is bound to define her worth by social standards, and therein lies the problem. |
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On March 2, 2010, 7:25 pm MassAppeal says:
@JAT
Great points. As a whole do you feel more or less black women have established that "learned behavior"? Could that be impacted by the lack of relationships that they never had with their fathers thus leading them seek that "validation" from black men in the streets? In your previous blog and also reading all these stories about single black women, one thing I don't feel is talked about enough is the importance/impact of the relationship women have with their fathers. I think this is one key aspect as to how a woman views and treats a man. We already know how this impacts black men. Instead of talking about preferences and standards I need to know how a woman was raised first and how functional her familty was growing up. That would tell me a lot about some of views if she's honest with me. |
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On March 2, 2010, 9:57 pm IntroSpectiv says:
@ Mass
I'm all about reciprocity. If I don't feel like I'm getting the same effort in return that I'm putting out there when dealing with a woman, I stop talking to her. Cut and dry. Everything else revolves around how much interest and effort the woman is putting into getting to know me. |
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On March 3, 2010, 8:43 am loveless says:
@Mass My fears could be eliminated by a man showing me he is sincere about wanting to be with me. I love myself. I love myself so much I take what men tell me with a grain of salt. I know these are my own insecurities but he has to do more than just take me out a couple of times and wine and dine me. I want him to show me by his actions, When I pull away I want him to ask why. My fear is that Im never gonna fall in love or get married again, But you know what, thats a fear a man can diminish. I can eliminate it myself but Im not going to. My expectations of a man is so small that when they do something besides send flowers or take me to dinner or do something other than what I expect for them to do I'm astonished. That astonishment can eliminate my fears and let me take these guards off my heart.
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On March 3, 2010, 9:32 am Wood says:
Great points Loveless, but guest what, you are not the only one who is guarding their hearts. You just think that a man is going to leave himself open to getting reemed while you keep your behind covered for the sake of love. When it comes to matters of the heart, many brothas are like turtles, in that they will withhold from giving up their heart if they detect any signs of emotional danger. Too many sistas never realizes that the way they conduct and run their romantic programs are mega red flags to any brotha with his eyes open and causes him to keep his heart retracted and shield from danger.
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On March 3, 2010, 6:44 pm JustAThought says:
@ Mass: Of course, the father-daughter relationship is extremely important in how women view men and interact with them. However, I don't think that this is the only issue, or even the first or only issue that needs to be addressed. Specifically, black women are devalued by everyone - including (especially) black men. This is manifested in many ways, but until we as a community take a comprehensive look at the root causes and effects of the devaluing of black women, it will still be a nefarious problem where the victims are blamed for being victimized. |
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On March 4, 2010, 12:34 pm MassAppeal says:
@Loveless
I understand where you're coming from and don't want to appear as if we're gainging up on you but Wood made some valid points. Men have the same fears and we've learned how to protect our hearts at the same time. We can't demand something from another person if we're not giving the same thing in return. Speaking from experience, one of the problems I see with dating is that it's hard to move a relatonship forward when both people are too busy protecting themselves from harm. Very counter productive. |
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On March 4, 2010, 12:44 pm MassAppeal says:
@JAT
Of course the relationship with a daughter and her father isn't the only problem but you have more control and a choice towards how you choose to allow that relationship (or lack of) dictate/impact how you live your life out. You also have a choice about allowing societal norms define or dertermine the value your worth. Not sayng these problems don't exist t but some successful women find ways to still reach their goals and others sit around and allow these challenges to defeat them or hold them down. It's your choice. |
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On March 4, 2010, 11:03 pm Dashon says:
Women:What excites you about the challenge of pursuing a man? (Be real)What determines if a man is too "soft" versus a man who has an edge?
Can't say that I like "the challenge of pursuing a man", I do like the discovery process though. I don't really pursue, I let it be known that I'm interested in more than a casual situation, and then I fall back and see where he takes it. Once I've made my interest known, if he's interested in getting to know me on that level as well...his actions will show that. If he's not...his actions will show that too. After I put my cards on the table...I follow his lead. You're right that no woman wants a man that's "soft", but how we define soft is an individual thing. For example, for me: a man who can clearly & quickly articulate his anger or frustrations, but lacks the ability to express himself in other ways; or a man who is not able take care of himself and/or the kids that he co-creates; or a man that allows people to run over him because of his propensity to extend blind trust; or a man who is effeminate in behavior....is soft. We could debate til the cows come home why it is that we are less inclined to favor the person that is showing us (without drama or conflict) that they care and want to be with us, over the person that continually frustrates us with their actions....and still not understand it. Think about it...even as kids...we were more drawn to the one that didn't like us (as much). Go figure.... |
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On March 8, 2010, 5:22 am JustAThought says:
@ Mass:
You are right, some women successfully navigate these issues, and some sit around and let it control them. And, you do have a certain amount of control of how you allow societal norms to define you. I think societal norms affect men and women differently (not saying one is easier than the other) because society places different stakes on women's behaviors and what's considered "normal."But, at the root of your question, is how women process the father-daughter relationship (or lack thereof) in their lives. Those who deal with that dynamic positively tend to have positive relationships, and vice versa. I think the biggest problem is the fact that fatherlessness - and in effect - manlessness is sooooo normalized that its repercussions are ignored, especially when it comes to black women. Remember, when widespread discussions first came up about fatherlessness in the black community, it was about its impact on black boys. Black women have been told to just "deal with it" when it comes to the absence of black men. Even in modern discussions, the issue of the absence of fathers is discussed in the black community not as a problem that negatively affects the personhood of black women in general - but as a detracting factor in their ability to be appropriate mates for black men. In my opinion, fatherlessness is just an offshoot of a wider tendency in our community to neglect our women. Addressing that will address the dysfunctional relationship dynamic, IMO. |
How do I make the distinction Mass.
First, if we are having good conversation, calling, and looking forward to the next date, etc, I will wait to see if she is willing to pay after the third or forth date. I will ask her whether she "got it" if she make any comments regarding furthing dates or get togethers. Some of my best sista friends are woman that I never ask out again, but decided to go down the buddy buddy path as we continue talking and getting to know each other... I don't care how fine she is, I'll walk away from the deal.
Another thing, I do not "seriously" date sistas who are dating other men... I'll still date them, but not seriously. Meaning, I can't be pimp from a few Applebees and Ruby Tuesdays dates. If I have serious intentions, I will flat out ask her whether or not she is dating other or does she want to date exclusively.
My position is that if there are things about or regarding someone that I may have serious intention in getting to know, I find solace that whatever serious future conflicts there is, I rather that any potential relationship dissipates early than to enter into a relationship blissfully ignorant about things I know I wouldn't deal with had "I known".